The process of designing a new skin for haiku-os.org. really only relevant to those inside the Haiku community.
Thursday, June 19, 2008
Initial Concept
I was going to dirty it up to make it less clear — but I think everyone gets that even though Fireworks always generates clean "sketches", the concept is still rough.
I'd like to hear comments especially focused on overall layout and information volume. I'm less interested in type, color, and image this early in on. What do you think?
I like the layout a lot. Very reminiscent of the current theme, but tidied up. First impressions are that it's clean, and the information far easier to digest. I'm impressed with the difference a fixed-width layout has made!
A few observations... I'm guessing the +/- buttons are for font size, personally I don't see the point in having them on the page when web browsers have the functionality built into them. Also, they (along with the RSS button) push the rest of the column down leaving an odd misplaced bit of emptiness at the top. I can't help wondering if there's a tad too much whitespace either side of the news items in the main content area... but I'm getting a bit picky now, and these are obviously minor tweaks that would need to be played about with in any final design.
I like the layout as well, but please don't use the tango icons on the right. I think they are overused and make haiku look like yet another linux distro.
I'm with gavin that the +/- and rss buttons should be (re)moved.
I also find the 'current newsflah'-box stand out of the overal layout. It's position isn't aligned with any other element on the page, creating a bit of tension.
@gavin: you're right, I just put them there to try to quell the (premature) text-too-small complaints. I'm a proponent of using the browser's text-size feature (I often have to). For people who, unlike me, have excellent eyesight, the web should look right. People without great vision should adjust it (like me!)
@cyrus: I aggree! Tango is great for Linux, and I think they should adopt tango icons or variants on that standard. But, Haiku isn't linux. Point me in the direction of a good Haiku-inspired icon set and I'll use them in my mockups.
@idefix: You're right too — I shouldn't have strayed from my grid.
@jorge: It's difficult to phrase without sounding asinine, but I'll just be honest — I find the current Haiku iconset to be less than ideal. The colors are unengaging, the shapes are too sharp and unrealistic, and the shadows aren't resolved yet. So, because of this, I won't include them in any of my mockups. If, when everything is said and done, those who agree on the design continue to agree on that icon set — then fine, but until then I can't bring myself to put those icons into my sketches (especially without changing their HVC)
IOW, if you are looking for Haiku-inspired icons, you already have them. :) The Haiku icon set is an intrinsic part of Haiku, so by definition there cannot be more Haiku-inspired icons than those from the Haiku icon set.
From a look and feel POV, the combination of the "leaf" menu and the Haiku icon set *undeniably* constitute the most distinctive visual elements that convey the look and feel of the Haiku operating system.
Furthermore, this particular icon set for Haiku has very broad support, as attested by the results of the icon contest vote that we had in 2006 that led to its adoption.
With these points in mind, I think that it is very unrealistic to expect that:
a) Haiku will use different icons (at least not for the foreseeable future).
b) The use of a different icon set for the Haiku website will be well seen or even acceptable for some.
Perhaps you could try to make the case of what its shortcomings are to the authors, and see if they can/want to address them. That would be more constructive than dismissing the Haiku icons set as unusable.
You're right of course — Haiku's icons were voted on by many people and they are likely there to stay at least for a while. From a "look and feel" pov, the icons tie Haiku to a past era as much as an old version of the GCC do. When we break compatibility with the old GCC, I hope the visual link to that era goes as well.
Another point is that Haiku's icons are desktop icons, not designed for the web — and not suitable for use at small sizes. That's another issue to work around. But, as for the quality of the icons I'd like to refrain from using popular support as a justification. MyPyramid.gov is a good example of why.
HVC stands for Hue Value and Chroma, I should have said HSB, my mistake.
> From a "look and feel" pov, > the icons tie Haiku to a past > era as much as an old version > of the GCC do.
As JLG said at the Haiku tech talk at Google last year, "it's not about nostalgia." :)
The BeOSish icons and look & feel were kept in Haiku reasons that are totally different from the reasons for maintaining GCC2 compatibility.
We like and therefore want to keep the BeOS look & feel. That's why we kept the winddow tabs, and that also explains why Stippi's icons won the icon contest. It is a reflection of what the project team and the community in general wants, and that's what matters.
On the other hand, GCC2 compatibility was kept to maintain compatibility of existing binaries, although that has apparently changed recently, and Haiku can and will most likely be a GCC2/GCC4 hybrid system, meaning that you will most likely be able to use old binaries and new GCC4 compiled apps in the same system.
Thus, one thing (BeOSish icons) has nothing to do with the other (GCC2 compatibility).
> Another point is that Haiku's > icons are desktop icons, not
Yes, because they were created for the desktop. That alone should not stop you from using them. For one thing, web usage does not necessarily mean small icons all the time; we use the icons at 32x32 res on the website, and they look as well as on the desktop. Granted, certain icons may be problematic at a smaller size (16x16), but then a combination of good judgment on what icons to use at lower resolutions and perhaps even tweaking the icons themselves should do the trick; the sources are available anyway, and Haiku has an icon editing tool that works very nicely.
> But, as for the quality of the > icons I'd like to refrain from > using popular support as a > justification.
Sure. But assuming that you want your work to be used in the Haiku website (which I thought was the whole purpose of this exercise), I think you are missing a very important point: that project team and the community has to like what you do; otherwise it is very unlikely that it's going to be adopted. So while I understand and could even agree with your principle, I am afraid that it's not going to work in the context of creating a design/theme for the Haiku website.
I suggest that you focus less on the leaves and try to see more of the big forest. That sounds kind of poetic, does it not? :)
The logo looks a bit too small up in the header, though that is probably pretty subjective.
I agree the plus and minus and the RSS feed icons look out of place. Getting rid of the plus and minus is the best idea, and the RSS feed link could be moved below the login link with a similar design. Then the download link could be leveled with the headline section.
The footer would look better if it was the same width as the news items it is below. Or it could be centered. It just seems a bit unbalanced like it is in the mockup.
I am not sure about the purpose of the "current newsflash" box in the header. It is a bit confusing since it shows news not on the rest of the page, plus it seems the "current newsflash" would be the top news item down below anyhow.
Regarding icons, I personally like the Haiku icons a lot, and frankly it is a bit elitist and anti-user to say something like "popular opinion doesn't matter and results in ugliness like MyPyramid.gov, my designer opinion trumps all."
Though I agree that desktop icons may not work well on the web sometimes. In which case I don't think it would be terrible to create a few new icons for the web-site, as long as they have similar feeling to the desktop icons.
Either was those Haiku desktop icons probably won't be going anywhere for a while. Also I am not sure what you consider good icons, but if Mac OS X is one example for you (as it seems to be for some people), I for one don't agree. I think those "sort of photo-realistic but not quite and sort of gaudy" icons aren't so great ;)
I'm not doing this becuase I'm trying to be a pain. I'm not doing this becuase I'm one of those people who can't do anything at dinner but talk about the typeface they like or hate.
It is not the usual practice for a designer to show unfinished work, as it invites premature input and fixation on temporary components which would likely be changed anyway. Feedback on general ideas and concepts is welcome at all times. Please save comments about kerning 'till they are really relevant.
10 comments:
I like the layout a lot. Very reminiscent of the current theme, but tidied up. First impressions are that it's clean, and the information far easier to digest. I'm impressed with the difference a fixed-width layout has made!
A few observations... I'm guessing the +/- buttons are for font size, personally I don't see the point in having them on the page when web browsers have the functionality built into them. Also, they (along with the RSS button) push the rest of the column down leaving an odd misplaced bit of emptiness at the top. I can't help wondering if there's a tad too much whitespace either side of the news items in the main content area... but I'm getting a bit picky now, and these are obviously minor tweaks that would need to be played about with in any final design.
I like the layout as well, but please don't use the tango icons on the right. I think they are overused and make haiku look like yet another linux distro.
I'm with gavin that the +/- and rss buttons should be (re)moved.
I also find the 'current newsflah'-box stand out of the overal layout. It's position isn't aligned with any other element on the page, creating a bit of tension.
@gavin: you're right, I just put them there to try to quell the (premature) text-too-small complaints. I'm a proponent of using the browser's text-size feature (I often have to). For people who, unlike me, have excellent eyesight, the web should look right. People without great vision should adjust it (like me!)
@cyrus: I aggree! Tango is great for Linux, and I think they should adopt tango icons or variants on that standard. But, Haiku isn't linux. Point me in the direction of a good Haiku-inspired icon set and I'll use them in my mockups.
@idefix: You're right too — I shouldn't have strayed from my grid.
@austin bales
> Point me in the direction of a
> good Haiku-inspired icon set and
> I'll use them in my mockups.
Since you are trying to create a design/theme for the Haiku website, the Haiku icons would obviously be the best match.
Or is there any reason why you would not want to use them?
@jorge: It's difficult to phrase without sounding asinine, but I'll just be honest — I find the current Haiku iconset to be less than ideal. The colors are unengaging, the shapes are too sharp and unrealistic, and the shadows aren't resolved yet. So, because of this, I won't include them in any of my mockups. If, when everything is said and done, those who agree on the design continue to agree on that icon set — then fine, but until then I can't bring myself to put those icons into my sketches (especially without changing their HVC)
@austin bales
I respect your opinion, but...
IOW, if you are looking for Haiku-inspired icons, you already have them. :) The Haiku icon set is an intrinsic part of Haiku, so by definition there cannot be more Haiku-inspired icons than those from the Haiku icon set.
From a look and feel POV, the combination of the "leaf" menu and the Haiku icon set *undeniably* constitute the most distinctive visual elements that convey the look and feel of the Haiku operating system.
Furthermore, this particular icon set for Haiku has very broad support, as attested by the results of the icon contest vote that we had in 2006 that led to its adoption.
With these points in mind, I think that it is very unrealistic to expect that:
a) Haiku will use different icons (at least not for the foreseeable future).
b) The use of a different icon set for the Haiku website will be well seen or even acceptable for some.
Perhaps you could try to make the case of what its shortcomings are to the authors, and see if they can/want to address them. That would be more constructive than dismissing the Haiku icons set as unusable.
All FWIW and IMHO disclaimers apply. :)
PS: what's HVC?
You're right of course — Haiku's icons were voted on by many people and they are likely there to stay at least for a while. From a "look and feel" pov, the icons tie Haiku to a past era as much as an old version of the GCC do. When we break compatibility with the old GCC, I hope the visual link to that era goes as well.
Another point is that Haiku's icons are desktop icons, not designed for the web — and not suitable for use at small sizes. That's another issue to work around. But, as for the quality of the icons I'd like to refrain from using popular support as a justification. MyPyramid.gov is a good example of why.
HVC stands for Hue Value and Chroma, I should have said HSB, my mistake.
> From a "look and feel" pov,
> the icons tie Haiku to a past
> era as much as an old version
> of the GCC do.
As JLG said at the Haiku tech talk at Google last year, "it's not about nostalgia." :)
The BeOSish icons and look & feel were kept in Haiku reasons that are totally different from the reasons for maintaining GCC2 compatibility.
We like and therefore want to keep the BeOS look & feel. That's why we kept the winddow tabs, and that also explains why Stippi's icons won the icon contest. It is a reflection of what the project team and the community in general wants, and that's what matters.
On the other hand, GCC2 compatibility was kept to maintain compatibility of existing binaries, although that has apparently changed recently, and Haiku can and will most likely be a GCC2/GCC4 hybrid system, meaning that you will most likely be able to use old binaries and new GCC4 compiled apps in the same system.
Thus, one thing (BeOSish icons) has nothing to do with the other (GCC2 compatibility).
> Another point is that Haiku's
> icons are desktop icons, not
Yes, because they were created for the desktop. That alone should not stop you from using them. For one thing, web usage does not necessarily mean small icons all the time; we use the icons at 32x32 res on the website, and they look as well as on the desktop. Granted, certain icons may be problematic at a smaller size (16x16), but then a combination of good judgment on what icons to use at lower resolutions and perhaps even tweaking the icons themselves should do the trick; the sources are available anyway, and Haiku has an icon editing tool that works very nicely.
> But, as for the quality of the
> icons I'd like to refrain from
> using popular support as a
> justification.
Sure. But assuming that you want your work to be used in the Haiku website (which I thought was the whole purpose of this exercise), I think you are missing a very important point: that project team and the community has to like what you do; otherwise it is very unlikely that it's going to be adopted. So while I understand and could even agree with your principle, I am afraid that it's not going to work in the context of creating a design/theme for the Haiku website.
I suggest that you focus less on the leaves and try to see more of the big forest. That sounds kind of poetic, does it not? :)
The logo looks a bit too small up in the header, though that is probably pretty subjective.
I agree the plus and minus and the RSS feed icons look out of place. Getting rid of the plus and minus is the best idea, and the RSS feed link could be moved below the login link with a similar design. Then the download link could be leveled with the headline section.
The footer would look better if it was the same width as the news items it is below. Or it could be centered. It just seems a bit unbalanced like it is in the mockup.
I am not sure about the purpose of the "current newsflash" box in the header. It is a bit confusing since it shows news not on the rest of the page, plus it seems the "current newsflash" would be the top news item down below anyhow.
Regarding icons, I personally like the Haiku icons a lot, and frankly it is a bit elitist and anti-user to say something like "popular opinion doesn't matter and results in ugliness like MyPyramid.gov, my designer opinion trumps all."
Though I agree that desktop icons may not work well on the web sometimes. In which case I don't think it would be terrible to create a few new icons for the web-site, as long as they have similar feeling to the desktop icons.
Either was those Haiku desktop icons probably won't be going anywhere for a while. Also I am not sure what you consider good icons, but if Mac OS X is one example for you (as it seems to be for some people), I for one don't agree. I think those "sort of photo-realistic but not quite and sort of gaudy" icons aren't so great ;)
Overall though good work.
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